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	<title>Comments for songless</title>
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	<link>http://www.songless.com/words</link>
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		<title>Comment on E. M. Forster: The Machine Stops by Cariset</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=20&#038;cpage=1#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator>Cariset</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/words/?p=20#comment-117</guid>
		<description>Wow.  I had read that in a sci-fi collection many years ago, but I hadn&#039;t realized that it was written so long ago.

And by &quot;many years ago&quot;, I mean &quot;before the Internet&quot;.  Eep.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  I had read that in a sci-fi collection many years ago, but I hadn&#8217;t realized that it was written so long ago.</p>
<p>And by &#8220;many years ago&#8221;, I mean &#8220;before the Internet&#8221;.  Eep.</p>
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		<title>Comment on E. M. Forster: The Machine Stops by Jules</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=20&#038;cpage=1#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/words/?p=20#comment-116</guid>
		<description>We had to read this for English when we were 13 or so.

Bonus points: Wall-E plagarized / paid homage to some of the plot points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We had to read this for English when we were 13 or so.</p>
<p>Bonus points: Wall-E plagarized / paid homage to some of the plot points.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social Surplus by Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=19&#038;cpage=1#comment-111</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/04/27/social-surplus/#comment-111</guid>
		<description>Fair point, Alex.  Any gross generalization about a medium is, well, gross.  Also, in every established medium that I can think of, the proportion of crap to excellence is extreme - so TV is no different there.

However, TV is different in the cumulative amount of time that Americans spend engaging with it.  Even film doesn&#039;t approach it (and with things like HBO, that line is blurred).

I don&#039;t think Shirky is arguing that TV is obsolete, so much as that it has been used to serve a particular cultural purpose (burning intellectual surplus) which may become less necessary as our society finds uses for that brainpower, and it ceases to be a surplus at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair point, Alex.  Any gross generalization about a medium is, well, gross.  Also, in every established medium that I can think of, the proportion of crap to excellence is extreme &#8211; so TV is no different there.</p>
<p>However, TV is different in the cumulative amount of time that Americans spend engaging with it.  Even film doesn&#8217;t approach it (and with things like HBO, that line is blurred).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Shirky is arguing that TV is obsolete, so much as that it has been used to serve a particular cultural purpose (burning intellectual surplus) which may become less necessary as our society finds uses for that brainpower, and it ceases to be a surplus at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social Surplus by Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=19&#038;cpage=1#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/04/27/social-surplus/#comment-110</guid>
		<description>What about the fact that some TV series are actually excellent works of art?  Is Shirky going to argue that film is an obsolescent medium because it&#039;s non-interactive too?  How about literature?  Painting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the fact that some TV series are actually excellent works of art?  Is Shirky going to argue that film is an obsolescent medium because it&#8217;s non-interactive too?  How about literature?  Painting?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social Surplus by Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=19&#038;cpage=1#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/04/27/social-surplus/#comment-109</guid>
		<description>Hello Sithel,

Certainly the article rests on the assumption that global collaboration must produce something incredible, eventually; and already has, in the form of - for example - Wikipedia.

Even if, as you say, only the motivated will contribute, the article suggests that this &quot;mere 1%&quot; of the population could create the equivalent of 10,000 Wikipedia projects per year.  Compare the value of such things to what those same people might have produced before collaborative projects such as Wikipedia existed - many would be frustrated writers and artists with limited audiences.

I&#039;ll be the first to agree that much of what gets produced on the Internet - like much of what gets produced in print, but often sans editing - is crap.  That said, I&#039;d be willing to bet that you&#039;ve benefited greatly from others&#039; free time.

Don&#039;t get me wrong: our culture does have issues with the age/class/wealth barriers of the digital divide.  Until we can start to resolve this, true mass collaboration will remain an ideal.  But already some of the stuff that&#039;s appearing seems pretty interesting to me, where hodgepodges of interested people can create sources of information that are often more authoritative and valuable than the official channels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Sithel,</p>
<p>Certainly the article rests on the assumption that global collaboration must produce something incredible, eventually; and already has, in the form of &#8211; for example &#8211; Wikipedia.</p>
<p>Even if, as you say, only the motivated will contribute, the article suggests that this &#8220;mere 1%&#8221; of the population could create the equivalent of 10,000 Wikipedia projects per year.  Compare the value of such things to what those same people might have produced before collaborative projects such as Wikipedia existed &#8211; many would be frustrated writers and artists with limited audiences.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be the first to agree that much of what gets produced on the Internet &#8211; like much of what gets produced in print, but often sans editing &#8211; is crap.  That said, I&#8217;d be willing to bet that you&#8217;ve benefited greatly from others&#8217; free time.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong: our culture does have issues with the age/class/wealth barriers of the digital divide.  Until we can start to resolve this, true mass collaboration will remain an ideal.  But already some of the stuff that&#8217;s appearing seems pretty interesting to me, where hodgepodges of interested people can create sources of information that are often more authoritative and valuable than the official channels.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social Surplus by Sithel</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=19&#038;cpage=1#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>Sithel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/04/27/social-surplus/#comment-108</guid>
		<description>You and Andrew both linked to this today, which I find interesting.  I read the article and feel like I&#039;m missing something since I found it rather unimpressive.  All I extracted from reading it is that people have always been seeking to numb their brain and will continue to do so.  The only point raised is that soon people will be seeking to do so on the Net rather then just through the TV.

I&#039;m skeptical of the merits of everyone producing and sharing... Not saying it shouldn&#039;t be done, just pointing out that wonderful fabulous things aren&#039;t just going to happen when they start doing so.  As an inhabitant of my own little plot of blog-space, I know what I&#039;m putting out does not enrich the world around me and often is as un-productive as watching TV.

Anyway, guess I just felt like raining on a parade.  There is good to be had with the powers of the Internet, but it seems like it&#039;s still only going to be well utilized by that small percentage of motivated folks who have always existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You and Andrew both linked to this today, which I find interesting.  I read the article and feel like I&#8217;m missing something since I found it rather unimpressive.  All I extracted from reading it is that people have always been seeking to numb their brain and will continue to do so.  The only point raised is that soon people will be seeking to do so on the Net rather then just through the TV.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m skeptical of the merits of everyone producing and sharing&#8230; Not saying it shouldn&#8217;t be done, just pointing out that wonderful fabulous things aren&#8217;t just going to happen when they start doing so.  As an inhabitant of my own little plot of blog-space, I know what I&#8217;m putting out does not enrich the world around me and often is as un-productive as watching TV.</p>
<p>Anyway, guess I just felt like raining on a parade.  There is good to be had with the powers of the Internet, but it seems like it&#8217;s still only going to be well utilized by that small percentage of motivated folks who have always existed.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Social Surplus by eveanhei</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=19&#038;cpage=1#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>eveanhei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 03:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/04/27/social-surplus/#comment-107</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. Thanks for sharing the link.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Games-as-Stories (via Tale of Tales) by WiredNavi</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=16&#038;cpage=1#comment-85</link>
		<dc:creator>WiredNavi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2008/02/02/21/#comment-85</guid>
		<description>I think a lot of the issue is that the balance between story and gameplay is weighted heavily in favor of the latter in terms of pure practicality.  Games which have interesting and enjoyable stories, or any other aesthetic appeal (horror, intellectual challenge, interesting commentary/ramifications, etc.) but do not have enjoyable gameplay will be frustrating at best.  I would have a hard time reading even the best novels if between fragments of the text I was forced to perform boring, repetitive tasks with a graceless  and unresponsive interface.  It&#039;s unfortunate and limiting when the story is only a premise for the gameplay, but it&#039;s often just unenjoyable when the gameplay is only a premise for the story.  That&#039;s not always the case, of course, but in the vast majority of even successful story-first style games like interactive fiction, the gameplay manages to enhance rather than detract from the enjoyment.

This is not to say that synergy between the two is a bad thing.  I think that most of the truly great games I&#039;ve enjoyed combine both.  But the vast majority of people who play games have been trained by years of games where story was not as much of an option (or at least was a discarded one, because of the arcade-games roots) to play them for the challenge and entertainment of the system, not the intellectual and spiritual spark.

It&#039;s worth noting that the kind of games  would consider to be story-above-gameplay, like interactive fiction, Sierra-style adventure games, and possibly things like Myst, are essentially descendents of ADVENT, while nearly all other mainstream games are descendents of coin-op arcade games.  While those coin-op games may have sprung from the early &#039;SPACEWAR&#039; style games, the whole concept mutated wildly over the 70&#039;s and 80&#039;s while story-style games never had as much development because they were less profitable before the introduction of home computers.  In effect, action/twitch nonstory games have had more time to grow up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of the issue is that the balance between story and gameplay is weighted heavily in favor of the latter in terms of pure practicality.  Games which have interesting and enjoyable stories, or any other aesthetic appeal (horror, intellectual challenge, interesting commentary/ramifications, etc.) but do not have enjoyable gameplay will be frustrating at best.  I would have a hard time reading even the best novels if between fragments of the text I was forced to perform boring, repetitive tasks with a graceless  and unresponsive interface.  It&#8217;s unfortunate and limiting when the story is only a premise for the gameplay, but it&#8217;s often just unenjoyable when the gameplay is only a premise for the story.  That&#8217;s not always the case, of course, but in the vast majority of even successful story-first style games like interactive fiction, the gameplay manages to enhance rather than detract from the enjoyment.</p>
<p>This is not to say that synergy between the two is a bad thing.  I think that most of the truly great games I&#8217;ve enjoyed combine both.  But the vast majority of people who play games have been trained by years of games where story was not as much of an option (or at least was a discarded one, because of the arcade-games roots) to play them for the challenge and entertainment of the system, not the intellectual and spiritual spark.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that the kind of games  would consider to be story-above-gameplay, like interactive fiction, Sierra-style adventure games, and possibly things like Myst, are essentially descendents of ADVENT, while nearly all other mainstream games are descendents of coin-op arcade games.  While those coin-op games may have sprung from the early &#8216;SPACEWAR&#8217; style games, the whole concept mutated wildly over the 70&#8242;s and 80&#8242;s while story-style games never had as much development because they were less profitable before the introduction of home computers.  In effect, action/twitch nonstory games have had more time to grow up.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Small Game: The House (draft) by Gedge</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=8&#038;cpage=1#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Gedge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 08:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2007/06/02/small-game-the-house-draft/#comment-14</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s astounding what you can learn about people by what they imagine in their environment.  I&#039;m interested in this idea of objects as artefact of personality.  Reminds me of a game I used to play on mIRC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s astounding what you can learn about people by what they imagine in their environment.  I&#8217;m interested in this idea of objects as artefact of personality.  Reminds me of a game I used to play on mIRC.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Programming lolcats by Dmitry</title>
		<link>http://www.songless.com/words/?p=7&#038;cpage=1#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator>Dmitry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:26:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songless.com/blog/2007/05/30/programming-lolcats/#comment-13</guid>
		<description>This is very funny! Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very funny! Thanks</p>
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